Talk:Big Daddy
You know Since the Big Daddy is the iconic face of BioShock, I think a quote would be really, really good. How about this one "Meet the Big Daddy! R.I. reveals Rapture's "knight in shining armor"... or "¡Kill it Mr. B kill it!" (KingShodo 18:25, March 22, 2010 (UTC)) I agree. Majoras revenge!!! (talk) 04:03, May 22, 2013 (UTC) Dude, you just replied to a comment that has been resolved three years ago.Einsteinium99 (talk) 05:08, May 22, 2013 (UTC) Big Daddies with Names The trivia states that four Big Daddies have been named so far. But technically "Subject Delta" isn't a name (Not a real one, anyway). Even "Johnny Topside" is just a nickname. Delta remains unnamed for the entire game.Ant423 03:52, April 24, 2010 (UTC) Question I looked at some concept art in gameinformer and the credits of bioshock and there was a Big Daddy with tentacles on it does anyone think this should be mentioned? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk • ) 16:11, 2010 August 2. Please sign your posts with ~~~~! :There was a lot of concept art for Big Daddies that didn't make it into the final game. Much of it can be found in the BioShock: Breaking the Mold artbook or on the Irrational Games website. ~'Gardimuer' [[User talk:Gardimuer|{ ʈalk }]] 23:10, August 12, 2010 (UTC) Not shattering. I read a few times on some of the pages that if you freeze a Big Daddy, at least in BioShock 2, they will shatter and you will be unable to get items off them. I did this for hours, freezing with the drill, using level 1-3 Winter Blast. I have yet to have an actual Big Daddy shatter. The only type of Big Daddies that shatter are the Alpha Series. Not even the Big Sisters shatter on me. Tested on Easy through Hard mode on the Xbox360 version. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk • ) 18:54, 2010 November 11 (UTC). Please remember to sign your posts with ~~~~. The suit might be a reasonable explanation (versus applying the 'freeze' effect directlyto flesh. Also a game-practical reason would be it making 'heavy hitters' too easy to eliminate that way. Testxyz (talk) 08:16, November 18, 2013 (UTC) Armor tarnished Bouncer I keep thinking that the armor of the Bouncer in Ryan Amusements is tarnished compared to the one in the first BioShock. So I'm curious if this was something 2K Marin did to make the two previous Big Daddies have an aged look (especially when they've been in Rapture for that long), or is it just me?Evans0305 20:33, June 21, 2011 (UTC) Subject "Gamma" I noticed the concept for Subject Gamma (Symbol Γ) has been spelt "Gama". "Gamma" is spelt with two m's. I'm fixing it.MadHatter121 21:08, October 25, 2011 (UTC) To be honest, the Gama symbol was just used as an example of the Alpha Series, not really the official name for it, especially when the same concepts have the same symbol, but are just the standard damaged Alpha. The "Subject Gama" may just be something easy for Fix to call it, since at the time, they didn't have an official name for the Alphas, and they called them other names like "Mad Daddies". Also, they weren't planning on a "Subject Gama" like this separate from the Alpha Series; it was mostly a concept of what their enemy Alpha was going to look like, and keeping the name like that would also be more speculative to suggest that it was a separate character. May be the name will create some fanfic for it, since there's plenty of users that would love to name it that. In the meantime, I'll note this in the Alpha Series Trivia.Evans0305 22:38, October 25, 2011 (UTC) Um problem Why is it that it says in the bouncer section, that he got his name because of an attack? A Bouncer is a type of body guard, like you see at the front of clubs and stuff. I will fix it later... 02:07, November 3, 2011 (UTC) big daddy helmet glow BIG DADDY HELMET GLOW on the article it mentions a type of fluid that controls the mind and provides the glow, where is this sourced and can someone please give me a transcript. cuz it makes more sense that the helmet just uses lights, because ''' '''A: lights go out when big daddy dies B: Delta took off his helmet and no fluid spilled out C: how would they breathe or see clearly if it was mentioned in concept art or whatever, it probably shouldnt be in the official article because its only concept —The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk • ) 09:20, 2011 November 18 (UTC). Please remember to sign your posts with ~~~~. Actually, the answers can be found in the main article. I don't have the artbook, but if it says that Big Daddies have their helmets filled with fluid, then it most likely counts as canon. The answer to question A would be that the lights go out because the Big Daddy wouldn't be in any mood, by dint of being dead. The answer to B is that since Delta is a prototype rather than a production model Big Daddy, he doesn't have fluid in his helmet anyway. The answer to C lies in the fact that mass-produced Big Daddies have their organs grafted to sophisticated life-support equipment, therefore their lungs are probably connected to a breathing system while their eyes would be augmented in some form, maybe even through Plasmids. --Willbachbakal 19:02, November 18, 2011 (UTC) :If that information did come from the artbook, then a page number should be added for reference. But even if it isn't in the artbook, there's the evidence of a storyboard for a cut flashback sequence from BioShock 2 that was revealed in the Protector Trials. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39fVoNOhApo ~'Gardimuer' [[User talk:Gardimuer|{ ʈalk }]] 20:48, November 18, 2011 (UTC) May need Buried at Sea seperate section: That 'first 5 minutes' video showed a BD doing repairs (out in Ocean) and firing his big drill (point) like a grappling hook to pull himself to a different location (I wonder who thought THAT one up...) Anyway BD predated 'Protectors' (logical with all the maintenance Rapture would require) Testxyz (talk) 02:13, October 10, 2013 (UTC) Originally they just had men in diving suits and small submarines for that. The novel makes out that attempts to modify men to be capable of walking the sea floor had been ongoing. It was only after the Little Sisters were made that they took on the form we know as Big Daddies. Ravenfirelight (talk) 02:50, October 10, 2013 (UTC) Speculation.... The Buried at Sea video shows several at work. Diving suits of that type (those arent hardsuits) dont work at the depths Rapture is at without being filled with liquid (too big a volume for normal human) and are really really heavy to have neutral buoyancy (600-800lb) which really takes alot of strength to move let alone work in. So a genetic mod (like Brute strength tonics minimum, if not also tonics to prevent the Bends) is required for a 'diver'. "Big Daddy" was a later name it seems, but whatever they were called (what we saw in that video, pre-Protector) they were most likely not quite human any more, but also not neccessarily as conditioned/modified as the 'Protectors' were (and we really dont know to what extent THEY had free-will or consciousness/personality, etc.) For all you know even in Lambs time you go to the Big Daddy Depot and you find them sitting around a table playing cards. Testxyz (talk) 08:06, October 10, 2013 (UTC). An interesting sequence from 'First Five Minutes' Testxyz (talk) 05:04, October 16, 2013 (UTC) --- One more thing, do these types were also Rapture's construction workers? They have been drilling deep sea rocks for others to build the other side of the city usually needed for an expansion of the city. ---- I figure that the diving suit maintenance guys were recycled insane people (whom there were alot more of thanks to Fontaines ADAM products) . Later their form was used for the Protectors. As for carving up rocks, there would be big machines for doing that (of course by BS1 times most of the new construction had ceased). Testxyz (talk) 05:17, October 16, 2013 (UTC) ---- Another question, some Big Daddies were not just criminals that has been trasffered into these but also some of them were Little Sister's biological fathers, since Ryan's men have taken their daughters away, the only way to reunited its own daughter is to willingly become a Big Daddy ---- Johnny Topside (real name unknown) who Ryan thought was a spy from 'The Surface was then locked up in Persephone(never specified how he managed to 'volunteer'). Some inmates may have volunteered for 'experimentation' (to get out or for better treatment) and were messed up so much by it they way have been turned into BDs. Sofia Lamb 'volunteered' her own followers (or other uncooperative inmates) while in Persephone to get her way. Meltzer, who Lamb considered a danger to her projects, whom she would have murdered him if Meltzer hadnt agreed to be a BD as a last chance to be with his daughter. Not sure if others volunteered when outside Persephone for that reason, and the later (later was when the kidnappings also started) Big Daddies werent paired with specific Little Sisters. Its possible whoever was recruiting for BD service may have told the applicants whatever they wanted to hear. Who knows how many 'inconvenient' people Fontaine earlier had converted to BD (if the City was paying for 'Maintenance Workers'...) Also it wasnt clear that Ryans men were doing the kidnappings. Earlier LS were 'orphans' from Fontaines orphanages (if parents put them there having them turned into Little Sisters probably wasnt mentioned to them). Alot of this stuff, we barely got clues. Testxyz (talk) 09:21, October 16, 2013 (UTC) Conversion of Meltzer and Sinclair seemed to be done rather too quickly so as to meet the plot, and with strange attypical remote control of Sinclair, as he could still talk to Delta in his original persona. Delta himself was a 'retread' and if he was recreated from his DNA why didnt he have his voicebox back as grinding that out was not a genetic change. Drill grappling feature explanation I suspect that the main reason why the Bouncer type of Big Daddy didn't use the "drill grappling" feature in other games set in Rapture is because...one of these possibilities: * Financial cutbacks. * That component wasn't maintained as well the rest of the suit. * It's in a version of Rapture that's connected to Columbia as how do we know it is the same Rapture that was seen in the previous two games? Jack probably wouldn't stand a chance against the Bouncer type, if that feature was working. Vae Infectus (talk) 02:17, November 18, 2013 (UTC) But then it doesnt show how long it takes to reload/recharge/ammo or whether it works too well in air (or gets fouled alot if not used carefully). If you miss it is stuck and the BD has to go dislodge it meanwhile being attacked or away from the LS - possibly just too clumsy to use in 'combat' Testxyz (talk) 08:04, November 18, 2013 (UTC) So a combination of financial cutbacks and technical cutbacks? Vae Infectus (talk) 15:21, November 18, 2013 (UTC) Or practicality. Spend enough money and each 'Daddy' could have had a 40K/Space Marine multi-barrel Assault Cannon firing 30mm shells... Its probably even if they thought of it in BS1/BS2 a complication for the game engine (the cord/rope/wire probably, since we do have the spears/bolts that stick into scenery and impale things) Testxyz (talk) 12:45, November 19, 2013 (UTC) Besides Bouncers are pure melee specialists, Rosies are the ranged specialists, Rumblers are crowd control specialists and...where do the Lancers fit in? Going off topic now...it was even mentioned in one of Dr Suchong's audio diaries that Andrew Ryan was financially tight with Big Daddy creation. All that was nessesary for the Bouncers to do their job is a means of bringing a painful death to any who would threaten a little sister and the gene tonics to maximise the use of it (e.g. to provide enhanced strength and durability) anything else was probably not considered cost effective. Vae Infectus (talk) 18:39, November 19, 2013 (UTC) Timeline Contradictions I'm thinking about adding a section noting the timeline contradictions about the Big Daddy's development, notably the weirdness of the Alpha development supposedly beginning after Suchong's death, but Delta appearing at New Years 1959 despite Suchong apparently dying later than that. Anyone have anything to add or protest? Ravenfirelight (talk) 18:52, March 6, 2014 (UTC) : Who said that Suchong died after 1959? Haven't you ever heard Bioshock 2 Audio diaries? Currently, the most acceptable date of Suchong's death is 1958. Of course, we will see about that after releasing Burial at Sea Episode 2. : Pawn of Atlas (talk) 13:03, March 7, 2014 (UTC) I have, the problem is that the Big Daddies were supposed to be developed to protect the Little Sister to protect them from splicers as they collected ADAM from the dead, something there wasn't a great call for prior to the war in 1959. Ravenfirelight (talk) 13:23, March 7, 2014 (UTC) : Ah ha! I see what you mean. Actually, I have many curiosities about pre-civil war corpses just like you. Here is my hypothesis : Even it isn't Civil War yet, there are enough splicers( and criminals like Fontaine's followers & Atlas' rebels ) that causes lots of troubles. Because of that, maybe places like Pauper's Drop, Apollo Square where public orders are sucked always have corpses, and people can't even remove those corpses out of their own safety concern. : Pawn of Atlas (talk) 13:33, March 7, 2014 (UTC) : Irregularities all linked with Suchongs Death, Little Sisters being paired and 'gathering', Big Daddies becoming successsful Protectors. ::BioShock is already contradicting, since one of Ryan's diary and some of Suchong's seem to point out that he was alive during the civil war, though the "conflict" could have started before the Kashmir bombing, thus solving the contradiction. If it comes to Burial at Sea, well I prefer to wait for the second episode to have the confirmation (or not) that Big Daddies were already protecting Little Sisters before the New Year's Eve, which could be explain by Suchong being able to watch scientists in Columbia improving his work, thus accelrating his own progress on the protector program, even nullifying his original death. Pauolo (talk) 13:47, March 7, 2014 (UTC) ::It will be very bad if its a second Suchong from another dimension (Tear) after the first one was 'killed' (thus resolving the 'contradiction'). ::- :: Its possible that Suchongs apparent death from Big Daddy drill (if that WAS him) was much later with him trying to improve an at-that-time sort-of working bonding (explaining Eleanor and Delta out 'gathering' New Years Eve 1958 - the BS2 snippet doesnt give long showing of how well their 'pairing was working and there is also the possibility that the conditioning at that point was hit-or-miss/inconsistant and in need of alot of improvement) Its possible to weasel some of the Audio Diary positioning as not necessarily having to be found AT the location/incident site their recording sounds like (sullivans at the drilled corpse..). In general they are pretty vague and there might be enough vagueness to beat a full contradiction. Might be possible Little Sisters might have been used (or attempting) to take ADAM out of living splicers ?? Insane ones in Persephone being warehoused there. But they needed something to protect them while they were vampiring live splicers?? Going pretty far but we have at least one example of the end of BS1 where the LS did that to Atlas/Fontaine while HE was still alive...... : Gathering from living splicer? Pretty good idea. But, Little Sister hates living things. She only loves her 'Mr. Bubbles' and corpses(a.k.a. Angels)'. That's why Jack survived from first meeting with Little Sister & Big daddy from Welcome Center. : Pawn of Atlas (talk) 13:47, March 7, 2014 (UTC) : It would not have had to be the final 'conditioning'/mode of operation (LS then could accept draining Living Splicers...) but the conditioning may/would then have been modified for the growing number of corpses from the Civil War(sometime later). Its mainly to prop up logically that LSs (sort-of) bonded to Big Daddy 'Protectors were around before the Civil War caused enough corpses to have a reason to justify having LS out gathering in the streets. If needed Eleanor/Delta were on their way home from such a 'Live' session at Persephone or even Fontaine Futuristic (there recovering ADAM from the failed experimental subject too messed up to even let them be seen sent to Persephone). That justifies (?) them being seen 'bonded' that early. (that conflict with Alexander saying he achieved success after Suchong was dead... a better bonding conditioning for 'street' gathering...) ::Uh, not really sure who to respond to at this point. I suppose it isn't inconceivable that there could have been enough splicer criminals around in 1958 to warrant Little Sisters recycling their ADAM, perhaps, but the other issue is the pheromone solution, something Suchong suggested to Ryan during the height of the Civil War chaos (When else would he have suggested it). Ryan's audio diary suggests as much. That really stands out the most. Also, Burial at Sea audio diaries indicate Suchong was alive atleast up until a few months before New Years, leaving scant time for Alexander to develop the Alpha Series pair bond (His audio diaries suggest he did so from scratch because the previous pheromone system attempts were considered inadequate). Maybe he could have produced Delta and Eleanor as a prototype pair by New Years, but its a crunch. All in all, the Big Daddy timeline is a bit wonky. Ravenfirelight (talk) 19:22, March 7, 2014 (UTC) ::Will have to see if the second episode makes it even worse... Drill in rock - not that thing : Rockwork you drill and blast (explosives) and the clear broken rock (shoveling). Using drill that is long narrow cylinder with cutting edge on tip. Most often was an impact chip/cut instead of rotary action. That spiral shape is perfect for getting stuck in rock and the the BD gets jerked and drill thingee wedges in real nicely and has to be reversed to un stick itself. Nice huge cutting surface to disperse force and maximize sticking friction. Chipping rock off a small surface, maybe, for as long as the power is available- wherever that comes from (compressed air - vents to ocean - inefficent, combustion - fuel AND air storage, electric battery -quite low capacity. ) Proper cutting requires significant bracing to force cutting surface strongly agains rock being 'shaved'. Much larger automated machines (even plasma cutters) would be needed to do sufficient 'rock' work for 'expanding the city'. Chipping/cleaning/unclogging accumulating sealife (much softer or brittle) OUT of a tube or off/across a flat surface like the inside of a large concrete tube the BD walks into -- much easier , but drill stiil must be powered and recharged frequently (same thing could largely be accomplish with an oversided putty knife, though wouldn't look as 'cool') Probably NOT applicable for cleaning windows. Thing might marginally be useful for stirring cement, but is ineffcient/clumsy shape for that. Best use - for scaring and possibly grinding up/impaling humans (where its 'sticking' friction is actually an advantage). : Perhaps the original drill had different detachable toolbits for various jobs (rock drill, auger, grinder etc.) The cone shaped tool might have been developed to defend Little Sisters against Splicers etc. (though a gun is probably better for that) : - : One would hope, as that seems to be what it might be best for -- large area and cutting surface around it so it can be swung side to side as well as strike forward with its point. Probably can do nice job bludgeoning with it (backup if its 'fuel' runs out). The BaS thing shooting it was a bit too much (another one of those things they thought would 'look neat'...) : Healed by Little Sisters I was just watching this gameplay video of BioShock 2 where the player used Hypnotize to make Splicers attack a Rosie. At the end of the last fight, we can see the Little Sister it protects healing him a bit by injecting him ADAM with her syringe. I'm pretty sure that before Burial at Sea 2 I've never seen such gameplay feature before, or never noticed it, and after running a quick search through the wiki I see that no pages mention this. Pauolo (talk) 14:38, May 9, 2014 (UTC) - There is a small mention of this, but it does not go into detail:- see the Little Sisters page > section BioShock 2 > third paragraph > Additionally.......... :So it's only in the second game? That's funny, because it was mirrored at the end of Burial at Sea 2. Pauolo (talk) 22:19, May 10, 2014 (UTC) - Cool I never noticed that before. Also, does anyone know the name of the music in the video? It's really catchy. Night at the Kashmir (talk) 20:38, May 10, 2014 (UTC) :That name is actually written at the bottom of the video's description. It's from Bio2 as well. Pauolo (talk) 22:19, May 10, 2014 (UTC) :Thanks! Night at the Kashmir (talk) 15:40, May 13, 2014 (UTC) I just noticed, while playing Bio2 that durring a battle with a Big Sister, The Big Sister will go to a corpse (adam filled) and drain adam to get more health o.O Shacob (talk) 13:46, May 13, 2014 (UTC) :That I knew, it was part of the game-play features of the Big Sisters. I believe they can do that with live Splicers as well. Pauolo (talk) 14:38, May 13, 2014 (UTC) :okey, I was just wondering, because i cant found it on the Big sister page (or maybe Im just blind) :Shacob (talk) 14:53, May 13, 2014 (UTC) How to resolve conflict in plot ? History '' ''Two weeks later, the Civil War initiated by the bombing of the Kashmir Restaurant's New Year's Eve Masquerade Ball led to a panic and an ADAM shortage. This led to the solution of recycling ADAM from the many Splicer corpses now littering the streets of Rapture. '' Then Why was the Gathering and the Protectors for the Gathering LIttle Sisters needed previously, for Suchong to already be working on the BD+LS bonding? No Civil War, no mass Splicer bodies to harvest and no shortage causing the big need for more ADAM. The wiki may need some mechanism to visially mark conflicting details between the different game versions. : The history statement should have red that "... this led to kidnapping of young girls to help aid the growing gatherings of splicer corpses..." etc etc. Nonetheless, there were gatherers before the Civil War because there was already much tension in certain parts of the city. This is highlighted in the novel (which most can debate whether canon or not, but we can take a pinch from each to help mend together a story with what official information we have) as splicing happened before the Civil War began, from the fight with Fontaine's men and Ryan's "police" force to violence in the poorer areas or even between shop owners (One shop owner killed another over a small dispute, the killer had spliced and grew easily irritable). : Also, could be the fact that splicers who died of natural causes like industrial accidents or old age were sent to the mortuary and it so happens that the little sisters were there as well. Tricksteroffools (talk) 21:10, May 15, 2014 (UTC) ::I was gonna add in the pages's behind the scenes section about the conflict of canon. We previously decided on the wiki with several other active members how to handle this mess, and what came out was to consider Suchong's death in Burial at Sea 2 as cannon and Alexander working in parallel on a bond of his own, instead of starting to add templates for each canon when both are only contradicted by a single detail. Also there were already corpses in Rapture due to rogue splicers and the bloody fight between Fontaine's men and and Ryan's security forces three months before the actual war (and lots of splicers among them too). Little Sisters already existed too because they were used for regular ADAM production, but it wasn't enough for the city's need and Suchong had the idea of recycling it from dead splicers, hence starting the Protector Programm. Also please sign your posts on these talk pages. Pauolo (talk) 21:24, May 15, 2014 (UTC) ::- ::Shootout taking down Fontaines thugs (many being splicers) ... but how many is that? (and minus all the ones stuffed into the Department Store). Is that ANYWHERE like enough to justify starting a whole program to develop 'Gatherers' (which itself would take a bunch of time to get such a project working - 'lets get children to walk around along, find and stab corpses the right way, and then slurp down their blood, AND then crawl into Air Vents to regurgitate their meals... yeah, that should only take a coupla days, yeah no problem....'), and THEN after they (ADAM-filled LS) started being killed by ADAM hungry thugs (and that only being at the few places where Fontaine's minions were killed ??? And everything being normal in Rapture enough (after the Shootout) for months to have that big party - SAYING everything is back to normal... or the High Street crowds demeanor (any of them even talk of such things?) and the big lack of News sources talking about any 'mayhem'), ::THEN the "Protector" program was started (taking even more time just to get funding etc), and to be ready in time to get Delta out on the street by New Years. ::Its very thin justification (just not enough mayhem and bodies like there was later when the casualties became thousands when the Civil War was in full swing (and even that took some time for Atlas to get organized....) ::So I still count that as a big contradiction (convoluted because it was there between BS1/BS2 even before the DLC heaped on more complications. ::Interleaving all this (and similar issues) in the main pages might make it a mess unless there is some 'normally hidden' 'more' type control with a visible 'canon issue' icon which expands text to the discussion about the contradictions and maybe links to whole pages explaining the twisted mess. :: 00:53, May 16, 2014 (UTC) :::So you have an opinion? Would have been great to hear it when we discussed this whole mess for days, and it was only a month ago, so honestly I don't give a fig about something we already went through and more than necessary. :::And what makes you think the whole protector program took a couple of days to be initiated? It took several months to be working, and probably another one after Suchong's death to bond the Big Daddies already produced, because they were already created at that time for maintenance and construction only. So the bond just took 3 to 4 months to be worked on. It was probably easy task for Suchong to create new mental conditioning for the Little Sisters since that was his specialty (Jack was probably more complex to work on), but bonding the insensitive Big Daddies was the real deal. As for funding, probably didn't took Ryan long since he saw the ADAM market as a gold farm, and he was the riches man in Rapture, even more after taking over Fontaine's business. Pauolo (talk) 06:24, May 16, 2014 (UTC) :::= :::In regards to contributor 75.... A large amount, an army as recalled by McDonagh and tensions were high amongst Rapture (mentioned in the book and some audio diaries in previous installments). As I stated, the book had many situations where people were dying, especially in the middle and poorer areas. That is why there are Public Service Announcement telling or exemplifying citizens to go about their days, that Rapture is on the rise, and the New Years Gala at the Kashmir was to be the toast to the end of madness (Fontaine) but became the start of the Civil War. Nonetheless, Ryan probably had only a minute number of Little Sisters (Eleanor included) roaming the streets for ADAM while others had to go through mental conditioning (beginning of BaS1, we see Little Sisters who have yet to have been implanted with the slugs but have clear signs of conditioning). It was probably after that Ryan let out his menagerie of LS out into the streets as well as kidnapping more girls, including Masha. :::Mentioned by Pauolo, Ryan saw the Little Sisters as marketing gold and ''wanted them to roam the streets and have Public Service Announcement talking about the little sisters, just as he created the Gatherer's Garden in their image. As for the Protector Program, could very well be that once a number of Little Sisters started roaming Rapture, people (either spliced or not) would approach the Little Sisters which would cause them to retract from their duties out of fear. In BaS, they were still in the testing stages as Ryan knew he'd need insurance for his new endevours (Little Sisters). As discussed way before, the wikia has decided that both Alexander and Suchong worked alongside each other and once Suchong died, Gil gathered Suchong's work with his own and continued with the program from there (making latter models after the Alpha series and Delta). It's not like the two hadn't worked before (The Vita Chamber). :::Speaking of contradictions, your whole statement seems to be a contradiction within itself. You are deterred from having the Little Sisters roam freely before the Civil War (as seen in BaS 1+2 AS WELL AS Bioshock 2's opening sequence) yet fight for (what has already been thought out and solved by members of the wikia) Delta's creation, even though we see him roaming Rapture Pre-Fall with Eleanor. While the rest of the wikia is trying to make sense of the mess, it seems that you try to warrant an even bigger mess, what with adding " some mechanism to visially mark conflicting details between the different game versions."